Sunday, January 31, 2010

this week's question...

I would like you to talk about the tone of Daphne's exchange with her father Peneus, lines 481-487. In your opinion, who presents a better argument? Why? Cite Latin to prove your opinion.

16 comments:

Chrysanthe said...

So we respond by commenting on it?

Daphne is sweetly coaxing her father into letting her remain unwed by flattering him with calling him her "carissime"-her very dear, gentle- father and giving the example: "Dedit hoc pater ante Dianae." If the king of the gods granted perpetual maidenhood to his daughter, it makes sense, with Daphne's logic, that she should be allowed the same. Obviously it worked on Peneus, because "he indeed gave in".

Chrysanthe said...

Oops, I forgot the "who presents a better argument part". Daphne has the upper hand because even though society dictated that women must marry and have children, as is Peneus' wish for his daughter, the nymph can support her decision with the divine action of Jupiter granting Diana a similar wish.

Gientsy said...

When Daphne was talking to her father she was flattering him with her hands on his neck, sort of embracing him. And as Chrysanthe said Daphne uses "carissime" to persuade her father. "Inque patris blandis haerens cervice lacertis,"
As for the better argument; staying in linesv481-487 from the poem, Peneus just said he wants a son-in-law or grandchildren, Daphne wanted to enjoy her virginity longer. I say Daphne presented the better argument, Peneus gave in anyways.

Whitney said...

Although both sides make a clear and present argument in regards to the debate about marriage, Daphne's argument beats her father's. I would agree with Chrysanthe and Gientsy when Daphne pleads with her father about Diana's father granting her maidenhood. "dedit hoc pater hante Diania." For if the ruler of the god's can grant this of his daughter Peneus surely can grant it to his own. When it comes to her tone in the lines Daphne definitely uses her daddy's little princess card by "inque patris blanddis haerens cervice lacertis," clinging onto her fathers neck. This brings up emotion for it shows a daughter simply playing on the feelings of her father. Although I agree that Daphne's argument has won, it has only won the first round. The quest for a male heir, etc... seems to be eternal when it comes to fathers. Peneus might have given in, but I don't believe he would have given in forever.

Emily said...

I like and agree with what Whitney said about Daphne playing the daddy's little girl card. She also tries to coax her father through referencing Diana and Jupiter. Since she compares herself to Diana, she is also comparing her father Peneus to the god Jupiter: "dedit hoc pater ante Dianae." After hearing a reference to the god of all gods, of course Peneus would want to grant his daughter's wish if Jupiter had done the same for his daughter.
I don't think either of them have a good argument, though Daphne's is slightly better because of her hatred of marriage: "Illa, velut crimen taedas exosa iugales." Granting perpetual virginity because Jupiter once granted this wish is not a good reason though. Peneus's argument that her beauty forbids it is not sound reasoning either (lines 488-489).

Chris said...

I do have to say Daphne puts up a good argument to her father. Again, flattering her father with "carissime" and then hanging on him "patris blandis haerens cervice lacertis." I like Emily's point in Peneus being compared to Jupiter, that would surely push Peneus over the edge. If Jupiter did it for Diana, then Peneus is going to feel like he should do it for Daphne.
However, Peneus puts up a pretty good argument about how her beauty forbids her desire of virginity, "votoque tuo tua forma repugnat."
Daphne does get what she wants, so I think she did a better job persuading than her father did.

Adam said...

Daphne's Father would tell Daphne that she owes him a son-in-law or grandsons. I found it interesting how he only wants sons and not daughters from Daphne even though she cannot control the gender of her offspring. After hearing this, Daphne decides that the best way to persuade her Father to let her keep her "perpetua virginitate" is to sweet talk her way into what she wants. So, Daphne "inque quidem obsequitur, sed te decor iste quod optas" trying to convince him to stay unmarried. She even goes a little bit farther by telling him that "dedit hoc pater ante Dianae" meaning that Diana's father allowed her to not marry. He agrees but he warns her that "te decor iste, quod optas, esse vetat, votoque tuo tua forma repugnat."
Daphne presents a better argument because she is saying that she has the right to say whether or not she wants to get married and that is fair. She has the better argument so her father allows her to remain unmarried.

Bryn said...

As Daphne is asking her father for perpetual maidenhood, she throws her arms around his neck "haerens cervice lacertic" and with "carissime" (persuading) words begs him to grant her wish. Peneus, being the river god, does have the power to do this but would rather not because he wants grandsons "Debes mihi nepotes".
I think although she has been hit with Cupids love-repelling arrow, she truly hates the whole idea of marriage. She poses a better argument, like Emily said, She compares Peneus to Jupiter. Flattering him and convincing him it would be for the best. "hoc pater ante Dianae".

Caroline said...

Daphne expresses her desire to remain unwed in lines 481-487 with a pleading, innocent tone, the likes of which have persuaded parents for apparently centuries. Daphne presents the better argument, as having an extra relative could potentially be much worse than losing your maidenhood unwillingly. Daphne states "Dedit hoc pater ante Dianae"to Apollo presenting him with almost a challenge, enticing him to be as generous as other gods have been.

Filipp the Great said...

Ah, my dear friends. I must take an entirely different stand on this issue. Peneus is the one that presents a stronger argument. I understand that the question specifically ask about lines 481-487, but looking ahead to 488 and 489, we see that Peneus does indeed have a point. Although he complies,"sed te decor iste quod optas esse vetat, votoque tuo tua forma repugnat." Despite her plea, her father tells her that that "beauty forbids you (Daphne) to be what you desire, and your beauty resists your vow." She is a very beautiful woman, one that must be married. Because of this, in lines 481-482, "generum mihi, filia, debes" she owes her father a son in law, and "debes mihi, nata, nepotes”;
illa velut crimen taedās exosa iugalēs" grandsons. Her tone has already been mentioned: sweet, caressing (carissime.) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but when you have the beauty of Daphne, every beholder wants you. Just like our brother Apoyo.

Devyn said...

I would have to say that Daphne has the better argument. Peneus brings up a good point in warning her that her beauty keeps her from being what she desires ("votoque tuo tua forma repugnat."). However, Daphne starts things off right by calling Peneus "carissime genitor". Flattery is ALWAYS a good way to start off things. But, for me, what makes Daphne's argument better is "dedit hoc pater ante Dianae". After all, if Jupiter, the leader of all the gods, gave perpetual virginity to his daughter, why can't Peneus give that to Daphne?

Emilia said...

I have to point out that we aren't sure if Peneus is the speaker of "votoque tuo tua forma repugnat." Though it makes logical sense, it's not in quotations and it could be the narrator addressing the speaker. Since that is how I interpreted it, I would say that Peneus did not really argue at all. Daphne convinced him in several ways; first, she made it clear she would never be into guys by being wild in the woods. She hates marriage. And then she was haerensing all over his cervice and calling him out, comparing him to Juppiter- "dedit hoc pater ante Dianae".

Kelsey said...

This has pretty much all been said already, but Daphne plays her cards well when she uses words like Carissime, and takes the gentler route instead of the stubborn attitude-filled tone that could possibly have been used in this situation. When she compares herself to Jupier, good move as well While Fil made a good point that I never really thought about, I still think that granting Daphne's wish for perpetua virginiate, is a better option rather than getting the boys he wants [generum mihi, filia, debes, debes mihi, nata, nepotes] and at the same time basically ruining Daphne's and having his daughter hate him. Also "going against" Jupiter [dedit hoc pater ante Dianae] sounds like a bad idea considering who he is and all.

Kristin said...

I agree with most, Daphne presents the stranger argument by referring to Dianna and how her father granted her perpetuā virginitate. Also, like many others have said, Daphne uses forms of flattery, like calling her father gentle and hanging onto his neck. Though, like Fil said, Peneus only wants grandchildren and a son-in-law so his lineage will continue, Daphne's forms of persuasion are much more affective.

Nik said...

I believe that Daphnes father is the one with the more sensible in the argument. Although it is wise for Daphne to keep her perpetual virginity...during the this time in the roman empire the ladies need to please their farther rather than going off on her own. velut crimen taerdas exosa iugales. This passage shows how Daphne really feels about the issue and how she wants to stay a virgin. I personally believe that she should not disappoint her father and give him a grandson.

Robin said...

As almost everyone has made clear, Daphne has made the better argument in these lines. Peneus doesn't seem to have a defense against Daphne's "daddy's little girl" act. The only words he says to her are "generum mihi, filia, debes", which were more of a command, not a very persuasive way to get Daphne to lose her virginity.
She, on the other hand, wraps her arms around his neck and blushes while telling him that he gave perpetual virginity to Diana, so he should do the same for her. "dedit hoc pater ante dianae". Daphne wins this battle with her persuasive innocence.